Friday, April 15, 2011

The List of Greatness - 1963

What? Has it been two years since we inducted a Celtic onto the List? Good God! Is that a record? We must remedy that immediately! That's only slightly sarcastic. But that is a record. Well when you've won 6 of the last 7 titles (and counting), that's bound to happen. (Also, for the record, yes, it is kind of weird to write semi-pretending to be in 1963. But I'm getting used to it. Anyway...) But that raises an interesting question I've always wondered about dynasties. How many of the great players on great teams are legitimately great players, and how many are good players that just seem great because they win multiple titles with transcendent players? I dunno yet. Haven't been able to make up my mind - it's certainly something that happens both ways, and it pretty much has to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Maybe it's something to look at after the List of Greatness wraps up. Or a few cases during. We'll see.


And I just re-read that, and it seems like it might be kind of confusing, but I don't know how else to explain it, so I'll give an example: Scottie Pippen - "Great" or "Really Good with a Side of Michael Jordan"? I know where I stand on that particular issue, but that's for another day. Okay, tangents aside, on to the list. Here's our players and stats through 1963:

1. Tom Heinsohn - 177.8
Position: Forward-Center
Height: 6'7"
Draft: 1956 - territorial selection
Experience: 7 years
Teams: Boston Celtics - 1957-1963 (#15)
50.0 Win Shares, 0.053 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 3 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 4 All-Star Selections, 6 Championships (1957 Celtics, 1959 Celtics, 1960 Celtics, 1961 Celtics, 1962 Celtics, 1963 Celtics), 7.2 Championship Win Shares, 1 Finals Loss (1958 Celtics), 0.9 Finals Win Shares, 0 Conference Finals Losses, 0.0 Conference Finals Win Shares


This is why I brought up the whole great player/good player, great team, transcendent teammate idea earlier. Tom Heinsohn is a perfect example. Maybe the perfectest. Before I started this project, I had always sort of assumed Heinsohn was someone Bill Russell won 8 titles for. Sure, I thought he was a decent-to-pretty good player, but certainly not a great one. And certainly not someone who would've won 8 titles.


Now I'm not so sure. He averaged over 9 rebounds a game for six straight years (1957-1962). And that's playing alongside Bill Russell. In case you're curious, Russell's low in rebounding during that stretch? 19.6 rebounds per game in 1957. The other five years were between 22.7 and 24.0. Imagine how many boards Heinsohn would've pulled down without Russell selfishly hogging all of them... (Joke.) Over Heinsohn's 9 year career, he was the Celtics leading scorer. (1957-1965, and yes, I know we're only looking at stats through 1963 for the List but for the moment I'm just looking at Heinsohn's overall value as a player/contributor.) It's not really even close, Heinsohn had 12,194 points and Russell was second with 10,703 points.


Now, I'm thinking Heinsohn might be drastically underrated. Would Heinsohn have 8 titles without Russell? Almost certainly no. Would Heinsohn have far better individual stats and far more individual awards and honors? Almost certainly yes. Either way, he definitely deserves his spot on the List of Greatness.


2. Cliff Hagan - 159.4
Position: Forward-Guard
Height: 6'4"
Experience: 7 years
Teams: St. Louis Hawks - 1957-1963 (#17 - 1957, #6 - 1957, #16 - 1958-1963)
60.6 Win Shares, 0.043 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 2 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 5 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1958 Hawks), 2.7 Championship Win Shares, 3 Finals Losses (1957 Hawks, 1960 Hawks, 1961 Hawks), 3.9 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Loss (1959 Hawks, 1963 Hawks), 2.5 Conference Finals Win Shares


After that discourse on Heinsohn, I really feel like I should have something to say about Hagan. Sadly, I've got nothing. He was, by far, the best player on the championship 1958 St. Louis Hawks. In the playoffs: 27.7 points per game, 10.5 rebounds per game, 27.5 PER, and 2.7 Win Shares. So there's that, I guess.


And the rest of the top ten:
3. George Yardley - 145.1
Position: Forward-Guard
Height: 6'5"
Draft: 1950 - 7th pick
Experience: 7 years (retired 3 years)
Teams: Fort Wayne Pistons - 1954-1957 (#12), Detroit Pistons - 1958-1959 (#12), Syracuse Nationals - 1959-1960 (#12)
58.5 Win Shares, 0.382 MVP Award Shares, 1 All-NBA 1st Team Selection, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 6 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 2 Finals Losses (1955 Pistons, 1956 Pistons), 3.3 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1958 Pistons, 1959 Nationals), 2.2 Conference Finals Win Shares


4. Oscar Robertson - 134.0
Position: Guard-Forward
Height: 6'5"
Draft: 1960 - 1st pick
Experience: 3 years
Teams: Cincinnati Royals - 1961-1963 (#14)
45.6 Win Shares, 0.907 MVP Award Shares, 3 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 0 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 3 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 1 Conference Finals Loss (1963 Royals), 2.3 Conference Finals Win Shares


5. Harry Gallatin - 131.9
Position: Forward-Center
Height: 6'6"
Experience: 10 years (retired 5 years)
Teams: New York Knicks - 1949-1957 (#11), Detroit Pistons - 1958 (#10)
60.1 Win Shares, 0.012 MVP Award Shares, 1 All-NBA 1st Team Selection, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 7 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 3 Finals Losses (1951 Knicks, 1952 Knicks, 1953 Knicks), 2.2 Finals Win Shares, 3 Conference Finals Losses (1949 Knicks, 1950 Knicks, 1958 Pistons), 0.2 Conference Finals Win Shares


6. Jim Pollard - 126.0
Position: Forward-Center
Height: 6'4"
Experience: 7 years (retired 8 years)
Teams: Minneapolis Lakers - 1949-1955 (#17)
18.2 Win Shares, 0.000 MVP Award Shares, 2 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 2 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 4 All-Star Selections, 5 Championships (1949 Lakers, 1950 Lakers, 1952 Lakers, 1953 Lakers, 1954 Lakers), 3.7 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1951 Lakers, 1955 Lakers), 0.3 Conference Finals Win Shares


7. Clyde Lovellette - 120.9
Position: Center-Forward
Height: 6'9"
Draft: 1952 - 9th pick
Experience: 10 years
Teams: Minneapolis Lakers - 1954-1957 (#89 - 1954, #34 - 1954-1957), Cincinnati Royals - 1958 (#34), St. Louis Hawks - 1959-1962 (#34), Boston Celtics - 1963 (#4)
69.8 Win Shares, 0.013 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 4 All-Star Selections, 2 Championships (1954 Lakers, 1963 Celtics), 1.1 Championship Win Shares, 2 Finals Losses (1960 Hawks, 1961 Hawks), 0.9 Finals Win Shares, 3 Conference Finals Losses (1955 Lakers, 1957 Lakers, 1959 Hawks), 2.1 Conference Finals Win Shares


8. Jack Twyman - 119.0
Position: Forward-Guard
Height: 6'6"
Draft: 1955 - 8th pick
Experience: 8 years
Teams: Rochester Royals - 1956-1957 (#10), Cincinnati Royals - 1958-1963 (#27 - 1958-1960, #31 - 1961-1963)
65.1 Win Shares, 0.066 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 2 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 6 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 1 Conference Finals Loss (1963 Royals), 0.9 Conference Finals Win Shares


9. Bob Davies - 118.5
Position: Guard-Forward
Height: 6'1"
Experience: 7 years (retired 7 years)
Teams: Rochester Royals - 1949-1955 (#11)
26.5 Win Shares, 0.000 MVP Award Shares, 4 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 4 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1951 Royals), 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 3 Conference Finals Losses (1949 Royals, 1952 Royals, 1954 Royals), 0.8 Conference Finals Win Shares


10. Richie Guerin - 106.5
Position: Guard
Height: 6'4"
Draft: 1954 - 17th pick
Experience: 7 years
Teams: New York Knicks - 1957-1963 (#9)
45.7 Win Shares, 0.032 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 3 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 6 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 0 Conference Finals Losses, 0.0 Conference Finals Win Shares


And the 17 Greatest Players Ever after 17 seasons:
Inducted List of Greatness members in bold; Retired players highlighted in silver
(Previous rank and rating, if applicable, in parentheses)
1. Bill Russell - 426.5 (4 - 350.0)
2. Bob Pettit - 405.5 (3 - 361.0)
3. Bob Cousy - 402.1 (2 - 378.6)
4. Dolph Schayes - 388.2 (1 - 385.8)
5. Bill Sharman - 276.2 (5)
6. Paul Arizin - 244.5 (6)
7. George Mikan - 232.2 (7)
8. Elgin Baylor - 228.1 (11 - 173.6)
9. Neil Johnston - 209.8 (8)
10. Wilt Chamberlain - 200.6 (12 - 164.3)
11. Vern Mikkelsen - 190.5 (9)
12. Ed Macauley - 179.7 (10)
13. Tom Heinsohn - 177.8 (17 - 140.0)
14. Slater Martin - 160.6 (13)
15. Cliff Hagan - 159.4 (15 - 150.7)
16. Larry Foust - 155.6 (14)
17. George Yardley - 145.1 (16)


And the next tier:
18. Oscar Robertson - 134.0 (32 - 81.4)
19. Harry Gallatin - 131.9 (18)
20. Jim Pollard - 126.0 (19)
21. Clyde Lovellette - 120.9 (20 - 120.8)
22. Jack Twyman - 119.0 (22 - 104.5)
23. Bob Davies - 118.5 (21)
24. Richie Guerin - 106.5 (25 - 94.3)
25. Jerry West - 104.7 (NR - 65.1)
26. Bobby Wanzer - 99.5 (23)
27. Dick McGuire - 98.2 (24)
28. Gene Shue - 93.6 (26 - 92.9)
29. Carl Braun - 92.6 (27)
30. Tom Gola - 91.5 (31 - 82.4)
31. Larry Costello - 89.9 (29 - 84.2)
32. Andy Phillip - 85.5 (28)
33. Paul Seymour - 82.9 (30)
34. Red Kerr - 78.4 (NR - 54.1)

3 comments:

  1. Aha! There's Heinsohn! Cliff Hagan rightfully mmakes it too...
    And right behind them is George Yardley (1958 PPG leader, and Points scored (which was how they measured. And there is Oscar right down there. Next year is two people, so maybe Yardley and Robertson can both make it.
    I also notice West is in the 2nd tier... I wonder how long it is before he joins....
    Thanks for continuing this post

    And I notice that you have placed a poll on the side... I voted for this, but I would still like to see the Tournement next year (or later this year). I waas going with this barely...I love them both


    Thanks....

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  2. Thanks! I'm really glad you've been enjoying it. They're a lot of fun to put together and see who gets in, just a bit time consuming. I'm definitely not going to get them all caught up by the time the playoffs end, but they will get done. (I have all the inductees figured out through 2010 so the hardest work/heavy lifting is done already, it just takes a while to type the posts up. So thanks for being patient with it and sticking with it.)

    ReplyDelete
  3. I love reading any NBA blog, but I love NBA blogs that have a really great idea behind them.
    This has really been one of the few blogs that I feel I must read once a post is up.

    Glad you'll continue this...

    Math2

    ReplyDelete