How about this? I cranked out two of these AND a recap column in two days. I'm rather proud of myself. Don't start expecting daily updates or anything, I mean, I'll try to keep it up, but let's just enjoy this while it lasts.
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 211.7
Position: Center
Height: 7'2"
College: UCLA
Draft: 1969 - 1st pick
Experience: 3 years
Teams: Milwaukee Bucks - 1970-1972 (#33)
61.5 Win Shares, 2.068 MVP Award Shares (2 MVP's - 1971, 1972), 2 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 3 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1971 Bucks), 3.3 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1970 Bucks, 1972 Bucks), 4.2 Conference Finals Win Shares
And the rest of the top ten:
2. Jerry Lucas - 200.6
Position: Forward-Center
Height: 6'8"
College: Ohio State
Draft: 1962 - territorial selection
Experience: 9 years
Teams: Cincinnati Royals - 1964-1970 (#16), San Francisco Warriors - 1970-1971 (#47 - 1970, #32 - 1970-1971), New York Knicks - 1972 (#32)
87.2 Win Shares, 0.027 MVP Award Shares, 3 All-NBA 1st Team Selection, 2 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 7 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 1 Finals Loss (1972 Knicks), 2.4 Finals Win Shares, 1 Conference Finals Loss (1964 Royals), 0.3 Conference Finals Win Shares
3. Cliff Hagan - 183.3
Position: Forward-Guard
Height: 6'4"
College: Kentucky
Draft: 1953 - 24th pick
Experience: 10 years/3 years (retired 6 years/2 years from ABA)
Teams: St. Louis Hawks - 1957-1966 (#6 - 1957, #17 - 1957, #16 - 1958-1966), Dallas Chaparrals - 1968-1970 (#16)
75.1 Win Shares, 0.043 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 2 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 5 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1958 Hawks), 2.7 Championship Win Shares, 3 Finals Losses (1957 Hawks, 1960 Hawks, 1961 Hawks), 3.9 Finals Win Shares, 4 Conference Finals Losses (1959 Hawks, 1963 Hawks, 1964 Hawks, 1966 Hawks), 3.8 Conference Finals Win Shares
10.2 ABA Win Shares, 1 ABA All-Star Selection
4. Walt Frazier - 173.0
Position: Guard
Height: 6'4"
College: Southern Illinois
Draft: 1967 - 5th pick
Experience: 5 years
Teams: New York Knicks - 1968-1972 (#10)
61.3 Win Shares, 0.067 MVP Award Shares, 2 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 3 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1970 Knicks), 2.8 Championship Win Shares, 1 Finals Loss (1972 Knicks), 3.3 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1969 Knicks, 1971 Knicks), 4.2 Conference Finals Win Shares
5. Larry Foust - 160.1
Position: Center-Forward
Height: 6'9"
College: La Salle
Draft: 1950 - 5th pick
Experience: 12 years (retired 10 years)
Teams: Fort Wayne Pistons - 1951-1957 (#16), Minneapolis Lakers - 1958-1960 (#14), St. Louis Hawks - 1960-1962 (#13 - 1960-1961, #14 - 1962)
69.8 Win Shares, 0.000 MVP Award Shares, 1 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 5 Finals Losses (1955 Pistons, 1956 Pistons, 1959 Lakers, 1960 Hawks, 1961 Hawks), 3.6 Finals Win Shares, 1 Conference Finals Loss (1953 Pistons), 1.1 Conference Finals Win Shares
6. George Yardley - 145.1
Position: Forward-Guard
Height: 6'5"
College: Stanford
Draft: 1950 - 7th pick
Experience: 7 years (retired 12 years)
Teams: Fort Wayne Pistons - 1954-1957 (#12), Detroit Pistons - 1958-1959 (#12), Syracuse Nationals - 1959-1960 (#12)
58.5 Win Shares, 0.382 MVP Award Shares, 1 All-NBA 1st Team Selection, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 6 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 2 Finals Losses (1955 Pistons, 1956 Pistons), 3.3 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1958 Pistons, 1959 Nationals), 2.2 Conference Finals Win Shares
7. Walt Bellamy - 143.8
Position: Center
Height: 6'11"
College: Indiana
Draft: 1961 - 1st pick
Experience: 11 years
Teams: Chicago Packers - 1962 (#8), Chicago Zephyrs - 1963 (#8), Baltimore Bullets - 1964-1966 (#8), New York Knicks - 1966-1969 (#8), Detroit Pistons - 1969-1970 (#8), Atlanta Hawks - 1970-1972 (#8)
117.7 Win Shares, 0.002 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 0 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 4 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1965 Bullets, 1970 Hawks), 2.4 Conference Finals Win Shares
8. Billy Cunningham - 143.0
Position: Forward-Center
Height: 6'6"
College: North Carolina
Draft: 1965 - 5th pick
Experience: 7 years
Teams: Philadelphia 76ers - 1966-1972 (#32)
55.8 Win Shares, 0.288 MVP Award Shares, 3 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 1 All-NBA 2nd Team Selection, 4 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1967 76ers), 0.4 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 2 Conference Finals Losses (1966 76ers, 1968 76ers), 0.4 Conference Finals Win Shares
9. Chet Walker - 139.8
Position: Forward-Guard
Height: 6'6"
College: Bradley
Draft: 1962 - 12th pick
Experience: 10 years
Teams: Syracuse Nationals - 1963 (#25), Philadelphia 76ers - 1964-1969 (#25), Chicago Bulls - 1970-1972 (#25)
85.5 Win Shares, 0.000 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 0 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 5 All-Star Selections, 1 Championship (1967 76ers), 2.3 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 3 Conference Finals Losses (1965 76ers, 1966 76ers, 1968 76ers), 2.5 Conference Finals Win Shares
10. Richie Guerin - 138.0
Position: Guard
Height: 6'4"
College: Iona
Draft: 1954 - 17th pick
Experience: 13 years (retired 2 years)
Teams: New York Knicks - 1957-1964 (#9), St. Louis Hawks - 1964-1967 (#15), Atlanta Hawks - 1969-1970 (#18 - 1969, #19 - 1969-1970)
69.2 Win Shares, 0.032 MVP Award Shares, 0 All-NBA 1st Team Selections, 3 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections, 6 All-Star Selections, 0 Championships, 0.0 Championship Win Shares, 0 Finals Losses, 0.0 Finals Win Shares, 5 Conference Finals Losses (1964 Hawks, 1966 Hawks, 1967 Hawks, 1969 Hawks, 1970 Hawks), 3.2 Conference Finals Win Shares
And the 26 Greatest Players Ever through 26 years:
(Inducted List of Greatness members in bold)
1. Bill Russell - 739.6
2. Wilt Chamberlain - 672.3
3. Jerry West - 531.8
4. Oscar Robertson - 489.3
5. Bob Pettit - 468.2
6. Dolph Schayes - 431.8
7. Elgin Baylor - 416.2
8. Bob Cousy - 406.2
9. George Mikan - 380.0
10. John Havlicek - 290.5
11. Sam Jones - 283.0
12. Bill Sharman - 278.7
13. Paul Arizin - 258.2
14. Hal Greer - 251.8
15. Vern Mikkelsen - 225.8
16. Tom Heinsohn - 217.8
17. Willis Reed - 217.6
18. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 211.7
19. Neil Johnston - 209.8
20. Ed Macauley - 204.7
21. Bailey Howell - 200.7
22. Jerry Lucas - 200.6
23. Cliff Hagan - 183.3
24. Slater Martin - 178.9
25. Walt Frazier - 173.0
26. Larry Foust - 160.1
And the next tier:
27. Harry Gallatin - 159.0
28. Jim Pollard - 154.2
29. Bobby Wanzer - 151.4
30. Bob Davies - 150.7
31. George Yardley - 145.1
32. Walt Bellamy - 143.8
33. Billy Cunningham - 143.0
34. Chet Walker - 139.8
35. Richie Guerin - 138.0
36. Lenny Wilkens - 135.2
37. Max Zaslofsky - 134.9
38. Jack Twyman - 131.7
39. Rick Barry - 126.9
40. Joe Fulks - 126.7
41. Arnie Risen - 120.0
42. Clyde Lovellette - 119.2
43. Zelmo Beaty - 117.9
44. Carl Braun - 114.8
45. Andy Phillip - 114.6
46. Connie Hawkins - 111.0
47. Larry Costello - 110.6
48. Dick McGuire - 110.1
49. Dave DeBusschere - 107.6
50. Gus Johnson - 105.3
51. Tom Gola - 103.6
52. Rudy LaRusso - 102.4
Heh...I wrote him off...but Kareem still does it. Lucas did jump him and Frazier is close behind. Cowens and WHite aren't even at the second tier....Lucas and Frazier win the Finals in '73, so they will most likeley jump Hagan...Those are the only challengers for now.
ReplyDeleteGreat to see posts!
Hi Luke,
ReplyDeleteI'm a Sporcle quizzes fan and yours are amazing, so I took a look at your blog.
I've read every single post the last 3 days and it's just excellent stuff, I enjoyed every read. The list of greatness is insanely cool and the greatest all-time tournament was really fun, looking forward to the next one.
I even dropped a comment on the Artis Gilmore article cause something drove me nuts :).
Now Just a few thoughts on the greatness equation and why I think it's awesome but could be even better: I think it puts too much emphasis on longevity, and not enough on who was the "better player" at peak time. I'd take Wilt over Kareem every day and I would go to fire swearing Chamberlain was better at his best than Kareem (not saying Kareem sucked here!). I think a way to account for longevity while awarding basketball awesomeness would be to count the 4 best years of every player at a 110% rate, then the 7 best years at 100%, then the 11 best years at 90%, then the 15 best years at 80 etc ... or something similar.
Victory is sweet, but I also think Championships weigh too much in the equation. Rings are the greatest acomplishments for NBA players but this just puts too much emphasis on championships and penalizes great players who had to play on bad teams. I would lower the number to 8 or 7.
Just a few words from a real basketball addict from France (sorry for the english!). Please keep up the amazing work!
@Baron
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you're a fan! It's always awesome to hear feedback from readers. You make a good point about the "longevity vs. peak" of a player. It was honestly probably the toughest part of the Greatness Equation to figure out how to tackle that problem, since some of the most talented/skilled players don't rate as high as you would expect due to injuries or any other reason for missing a couple years or cutting a career short.
Ultimately it came down to this comparison for me: Bill Walton or Dikembe Mutombo? (Or you can use any similar players here, these guys are just for an example.) Would you rather have 1-2 transcendent seasons and 7-8 average to below average injury plagued seasons of Bill Walton, or 2-3 great seasons, 5-6 really good seasons, and 7-8 average seasons, and 1-2 below average seasons from Mutombo? Walton's in the Hall of Fame, Mutombo may or may not make it, but I'd guess probably not. (And I fully agree with both of those.) But if I'm owning/running a team, or a fan of a team, I'd rather have Mutombo.
(One caveat: if a player is SO amazingly good that he wins you a title single handedly and never plays for you again, I'd take the title, but I really can't think of any player that fits that description. Walton's probably the closest, but the '77 Blazers were far from a one man show.)
I eventually decided that longevity should matter in ranking a player's career. Basically this means that the Greatness Equation essentially measures the "Greatest Careers" rather than which players were more skilled or talented than others.
So while I absolutely agree with you that Chamberlain was a far more skilled/dominant player than Kareem, but Kareem definitely had the better career.
Oh, and I forgot to mention this above: I've thought about doing a "Greatest Seasons" or "Greatest Peaks" project down the line, where I calculate out the best single seasons or the best 3 or 5 year stretches of a player's career. But that's about 2nd or 3rd on my projects list for right now.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll take a look at playing with the numbers for championship values, but trust me, I used about every coefficient possible for each factor when I was developing this thing. I think I had the championship at 7.5 for a while, but I didn't quite like the way things shook out with the finals and conference finals values then. I strongly felt like a championship should be worth at least twice as much as a finals loss, and if I adjusted that down, I had to adjust the conference finals values down, and then those two others were getting to a level of almost meaninglessness.
Plus I'm fairly happy with where the championship-less guys placed relative to other players. Karl Malone is sandwiched between Larry Bird and Jerry West. Charles Barkley is between David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki. Elgin Baylor sits between Dolph Schayes and Scottie Pippen. And Patrick Ewing is between Walt Frazier and Clyde Drexler. All of those places feel just about right to me.
Good points.
ReplyDeleteIf the greatness equation is about rating a player's career, then it's as close to perfect as it could be.
I agree that no player in history fits the label of singlehandedly winning a title, and if Wilt, the most dominant player ever couldn't, it's highly unlikely it will ever happen.
I would be very interested in a research about greatest seasons/peak, looking forward to this one.
PS : I'd definitely take Walton over Mutombo
PS 2 : Any thoughts about Sabonis ?
Well, Sabonis does deserve to be in the "basketball Hall of Fame," which he rightly is. I think my point was just that, as far as his NBA career was concerned, I really had nothing with which to evaluate him. He didn't play in the NBA until well past his prime, and there's really very little footage or anything other than anecdotal evidence about his dominance in Europe during his peak. But from what I can gather, if those damn Soviets had let him come play in the US, he'd have had at least a couple titles and an MVP or two.
ReplyDeleteSo, Basketball Hall of Fame (which it is) - yes, he should be in. IF it was the NBA Hall of Fame, though - no way. There's just not enough evidence solely from his NBA career to accurately evaluate him as one of the best big men ever.